Discussion:
Security Considerations, IoT and Everything
Michael StJohns
2016-11-22 20:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi -

During the plenary presentations in Seoul we were treated to a view of
how the Internet has changed with the introduction of cheap
network-connected devices with poor security. That presentation, as
well as discussion in various IoT/Constrained Devices related working
groups got me thinking about RFC security considerations and how they
may need to change in the future. Basically, we've been writing Security
Consideration sections that address threats *to* the protocol and
devices that implement the protocol. Is it time to revise BCP72/RFC3522
to require we also address threats *from* the protocols to the Internet
as a whole?

For example, DNS has been used quite frequently as a stepping-off point
for DDoS attacks. In the recent IOT related attacks, bad UI/Password
management choices were a contributing factor to those IoT devices being
used in DDoS. In
https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/03/hackers-hijack-a-philips-hue-lights-with-a-drone/,
the researchers were able to take advantages of bad crytographic design
choices (e.g. all of the firmware was signed/verified using the same
secret key - which was present in all lightbulbs), and a flaw in the
Zigbee attack, and a drone (to get close enough) to take control of a
group of HUE lightbulbs, re-write their firmware and flash SOS.

One of the claims for IoT is 10s of billions of devices added to the
internet within the next 5-10 years, and that may be a low estimate.
The targets for IoT are everywhere from simple
sensor/controller/actuator devices (e.g. thermostats, lighting systems)
to more complex combinations of devices at all grades of capability from
ultra cheap throwaways to consumer/commercial/industrial. Then there's
the how cyber-physical thing - internet connected devices that can
interact and control things in the real world. Consider for a moment the
threat to safety and health if the HUE were instead designed to be used
for UV sterilization instead of plain lighting.

There's also this push for cheap and fast to market. Unfortunately, that
may mean poorly protected devices with unintended consequences to the
Internet as a whole. We're starting to see worked examples of this.

So getting back to RFC3522:

1) Is it time to update this 2003 document in view of current threats?

2) Can we say anything useful with respect to security protocol design,
protocol fields of use and probable impact on the Internet?

3) Should we set a minimum bar to try and avoid standardizing unsafe
protocols or at least unsafe security choices in protocols?


In the early days of the internet, connected devices were mostly big
iron - main frames and mini-computers. Next came the wave of PCs. Next
the smart phones and tablets. All of these had one thing mostly in
common - there was generally a Human in the loop somewhere watching the
device. For IoT - humans not so much. That's obviously both an
advantage and disadvantage; but it might also be an indication that we
need to re-think our internet security strategies - again.


Mike
Stephen Farrell
2016-11-22 21:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Is it time to revise BCP72/RFC3522 to require we also address threats
*from* the protocols to the Internet as a whole?
Yes. As Kathleen said please do contribute to the relevant
thread [1] on the saag list.

S.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg07514.html
Michael StJohns
2016-11-22 22:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrell
Is it time to revise BCP72/RFC3522 to require we also address threats
*from* the protocols to the Internet as a whole?
Yes. As Kathleen said please do contribute to the relevant
thread [1] on the saag list.
S.
[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg07514.html
Thanks - missed this on the SAAG list when it first came out.

To be honest, this thread/discussion appears a bit moribund: it wasn't
brought up during the SAAG meeting this time AFAICT, it doesn't appear
to actually be a WG item as of yet, there doesn't appear to be much if
any discussion on the SAAG list (a quick look doesn't find anything
since July excepts Stephen's note - and that was all related to
privacy), and the ID and GIT don't appear to have been updated since
August. The version on GIT seems to be only a references update from
3522. It looks like there was maybe a 10 minute - if that - chat about
this in Berlin.

Perhaps it's time to have a broader (than SAAG) discussion on this as it
really reaches further?

Mike

ps - on another note, why doesn't the SAAG have a datatracker page like
rtgwg?
Stephen Farrell
2016-11-22 22:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael StJohns
Post by Stephen Farrell
Is it time to revise BCP72/RFC3522 to require we also address threats
*from* the protocols to the Internet as a whole?
Yes. As Kathleen said please do contribute to the relevant
thread [1] on the saag list.
S.
[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg07514.html
Thanks - missed this on the SAAG list when it first came out.
Yep. I hope though that topics such as this will be raised
and dealt with. I guess it'll be slower than we hoped though.
Post by Michael StJohns
it wasn't
brought up during the SAAG meeting this time AFAICT, it doesn't appear
to actually be a WG item as of yet, there doesn't appear to be much if
any discussion on the SAAG list (a quick look doesn't find anything
since July excepts Stephen's note - and that was all related to
privacy), and the ID and GIT don't appear to have been updated since
August. The version on GIT seems to be only a references update from
3522. It looks like there was maybe a 10 minute - if that - chat about
this in Berlin.
Perhaps it's time to have a broader (than SAAG) discussion on this as it
really reaches further?
I don't care if it's broad or narrow so long as we cover the
ground. If/when folks engage then we'll find the right method
for handling engagement. (Could be on here, on saag or on a
new list - but for now, I think saag is the better option.)
Post by Michael StJohns
Mike
ps - on another note, why doesn't the SAAG have a datatracker page like
rtgwg?
Saag's not a WG. People suggest it now and then (and others
dislike the idea). Feel free to raise that too (though I'd
far prefer we discuss 3552bis myself.)

Cheers,
S.
Michael StJohns
2016-11-23 01:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrell
Post by Michael StJohns
ps - on another note, why doesn't the SAAG have a datatracker page like
rtgwg?
Saag's not a WG. People suggest it now and then (and others
dislike the idea). Feel free to raise that too (though I'd
far prefer we discuss 3552bis myself.)
I didn't ask why SAAG is not a WG, I asked why it didn't have a
datatracker page. Not having a datatracker page makes it difficult to
track things that are associated only with the SAAG (e.g. the draft 3552
replacement). In the IETF meeting APP, I can't lookup "saag" in the wg
list to see what's what for the meeting for example and that appears to
be a directly related to SAAGs lack of datatracker presence.

E.g. - this is an administrative question for the ADs, not a "why don't
we have a working group question" for the community.

Mike
Dave Taht
2016-11-24 15:43:14 UTC
Permalink
NIST published this last month.

http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-160.pdf
Post by Michael StJohns
ps - on another note, why doesn't the SAAG have a datatracker page like
rtgwg?
Saag's not a WG. People suggest it now and then (and others
dislike the idea). Feel free to raise that too (though I'd
far prefer we discuss 3552bis myself.)
I didn't ask why SAAG is not a WG, I asked why it didn't have a datatracker
page. Not having a datatracker page makes it difficult to track things that
are associated only with the SAAG (e.g. the draft 3552 replacement). In the
IETF meeting APP, I can't lookup "saag" in the wg list to see what's what
for the meeting for example and that appears to be a directly related to
SAAGs lack of datatracker presence.
Hi, Mike.
While there isn’t a SAAG datatracker page, there is a SAAG github group
where you can find (among no other things) the text of rfc3552bis.
Having a datatracker page implies that there are drafts in there. AFAICT
this is the first draft that people associate with SAAG so a page didn’t
make sense before.
https://github.com/IETF-SAAG
Yoav
--
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org
Carsten Bormann
2016-11-22 22:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Is it time to revise BCP72/RFC3522 to require we also address threats *from* the protocols to the Internet as a whole?
Indeed. We did some of this in the security considerations of RFC 7252 (e.g., section 11.3 and 11.5). A catalog of issues to consider would certainly help in writing future security considerations sections.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-11.3
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-11.5

Grüße, Carsten
Rich Kulawiec
2016-12-02 00:45:04 UTC
Permalink
In the early days of the internet, connected devices were mostly big iron -
main frames and mini-computers. Next came the wave of PCs. Next the smart
phones and tablets. All of these had one thing mostly in common - there was
generally a Human in the loop somewhere watching the device.
True, although one consequence of the rise of the bots 15-ish years ago,
and their subsequent evolution, is that even if a human IS watching the
device, they may not be aware of (all of) its activities.

Reviewing that history: by 2007, we'd arrived here:

Vint Cerf: one quarter of all computers part of a botnet
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070125-8707.html

I thought the 150M estimate was a bit high: based on my own research and
on conversations with others about theirs, I thought 100M was closer.
But it's important to note that the number was (and is) not only
unknown, but unknowable, since a bot which does nothing to make
its presence known to detector will remain invisible indefinitely.
Still: with the benefit of nearly a decade of hindsight, I think I was
wrong: I now think 150M was probably a better estimate.

But whether it was 100M or 150M or 200M: that's an alarming number.

The security posture of all those systems was somewhat better than most
of the devices now being deployed as part of the IoT. I think it's not
unreasonable to expect the IoT ecosystem to be compromised far more
quickly and to a much higher degree.

"In a relatively short time we've taken a system built to resist
destruction by nuclear weapons and made it vulnerable to toasters."
--- Jeff Jarmoc, October 21, 2016

---rsk

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